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Why some Districts won't allow Krytox

Discussion in 'General Pinewood Derby Discussion' started by Pinewood Outlaw, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. Pinewood Outlaw

    Pinewood Outlaw Workshop Leader

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    I have been surveying the various districts in our area about why they don't allow krytox. The vast majority seem to have no knowledge of the product. A few mistakingly think it will get on the track due to no real world experience with the product. I have came across one answer that has me puzzled and laughing.....

    Their reason why they don't allow it is because it cost too much at scout shop lol. By this reasoning I guess they wouldn't allow tungsten weights either.
     
  2. Mojo Racing

    Mojo Racing National Contender Pro Racer

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    We had the discussion last year after the race season as we were starting to get rules in shape for this year. And it was voted in. Then one guy went to the place where we race districts and told them that we were racing oil and that it would get everywhere, so they said no oil in the place. Oh yeah ! This is an airplane museum, with their own oils and hydraulic fluids...

    Basically, they are all against change. They don't allow what they don't understand.
     
  3. Racing358t

    Racing358t Pinewood Ninja

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    Yes I agree, if the same person saying it's too expensive is ok with buying $20+ worth of tungsten then it's hypocritical to say Krytox is too expensive.

    Snopes would say busted... Just like the tungsten once you buy it you don't need to buy it again for the entire Cub Scout PWD Racing lifespan. The bottle has Plenty of oil to last 5 years if only building a scout cars. Similar to how the tungsten can be reused every year.

    Also, I don't get how the venues that hold the races or the people that make the rules are ok with Graphite getting everywhere and fouling the track and everything around it but cringe at the idea of a tiny drop of oil might somehow foul the track. Graphite is horrible to clean up. I just helped clean up 10 years worth of graphite off of our Troop's track. Believe me... that job sucked. The oil just wipes off. To me it's a no brainer that the argument of the remote possibility of oil fouling things up isn't a valid argument.

    Scott
     
  4. TRE

    TRE PWD Royalty Pro Racer Pro Race Winner

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    Plus you breath the graphite dust when apply it
     
  5. NovaFury

    NovaFury Hammering Axles

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    I thought it was healthy to breathe in graphite... Damn that explains everything!!!!
     
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  6. Pinewood Outlaw

    Pinewood Outlaw Workshop Leader

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    It appears I misread the email from this particular district. After reading it over it makes even less since.

    They acknowledge that while kryrox isn't that expensive there are other krtox blends online that are very expensive...and so since they can't tell which one is which they make the kids add graphite if they don't see it on the axles(slots only rule uhhgg)

    So with that said I assume they must be able to tell by looking if a scout has used cheap wal mart graphite or one that costs more such as DD4H graphite
     
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  7. B_Regal Racing

    B_Regal Racing PWD Royalty Pro Racer

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    It sheer ignorance. Don't try to make sense of it, the no oil rule that is...
     
  8. Chief

    Chief PWD Royalty

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    This is eXactly why we now sponcer our derby... MY Track, my rules. And everyone now uses oil... some good and some not so good but that’s racin
     
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  9. Jimmy & his 2 Kids

    Jimmy & his 2 Kids National Contender

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    Our kids do Awana Grand Prix thru church up here in MI. There are various regions of course and rules sets. The ones in this area actually (thankfully) allow oil and one, West Michigan Awana Grand Prix, actually BANNED graphite for all the right reasons. It’s too bad how blind some folks can be even after the obvious is made known. Well at least we can all still race eh.
    Jimmy
     
  10. Wolfram Racing

    Wolfram Racing Rail Runner

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    Chief...that's a great idea. That might just be the only avenue of change that could work. Of course, we would have to do 2 derbys to cover districts, but that might just be the only way to open eyes.
     
  11. Thinkin'Bout Racin

    Thinkin'Bout Racin League Racer

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    This is kind a long read but maybe...just maybe ....here is what I tried......

    I started lobbying for use of oil about 3 years ago. I wasn't pushy at all, rather I just explained some of the benefits that oil could offer. There was one District leader that was adamant that oil was not faster and that he had tried both. I let him have his own opinion and offered up that while "oil was not much faster" that it ran more consistent for a greater number of runs. I was helping to always set up and take down the track at that time. I tried to make some connections. The person in charge of the District track overheard my various soft sell conversations. I later found out that how much I was sharing with various parents and kids about how to build a faster car did not go unnoticed. We also discussed that while oil had the potential to drop onto the track, that when used properly it could be much cleaner than graphite. We covered the topic of cost. I explained that while the oil was more expensive, that a dad could buy a bottle when his Cub was first starting and have way more that he would need until he crossed over. I also offered the idea that a couple parents could share a bottle or even the possibility that a pack could share. I explained that only 1-2 drops were needed depending on size of the drop. I also stressed that too much oil would slow the car down!

    I reached out to the person in charge of the District track and offered to help with anything they needed with the track. I looked up repair parts and sent links to items that were needed for the track. I offered to give a short class at the District races about how to check alignment and set your steer. That went unanswered until after the following years District race.

    I again offered to help with anything that was needed with the track. It was at that time that I was taken up on my offer. That fall we ended up working on the track at my place. The two of us spent about12 - 13 hours each working on the track. We each spent about 4-5 hours cleaning the track. We went thru two bottles of Simple Green and about 2 cans of brake cleaner to remove the graphite that was on the track. I also showed him how to clean the stop section with a lint roller. He was amazed at how much graphite had built on on both the track and the stop section. We then used pledge wipes to "treat" the clean surface and help with future removal of graphite buildup.

    While working on the track we had various conversations about the physics of the track, the start gate, joint transitions and various car topics. I was able to show him what I had done with our start gate and joint transitions. I also showed him various tools that I had built to help the Cubs build a faster car (I found ideas to many of the tools while reading here). He found out that my son and I held workshops for the Cubs to build their cars both before my son crossed over and again after he crossed over.

    It was while we were working on the track together, that HE brought up the subject of oil. I then reaffirmed my thoughts about the benefits of using oil including that it could ultimately be cleaner. I also added, that I thought that there would need to be some sort of a transition period if they were going to consider allowing oil. I stated that some of the people would not want to switch and that there would be some that this would be their last year racing and would not want to learn a new process. I even discussed that the Scout store would need to carry oil and that they would need time to get it in stock. We even discussed that the rules would need to be changed. I explained that silicone is part of the axle prep process when using oil and that the silicone exclusion would need to be removed. I offered to help review and rewrite the rules.

    I believe that because I showed that I knew a little bit about Pinewood Derby and track setup, that I gained some small sense of respect from this leader. It took some time, but he made the decision to allow oil and graphite this year. He did tell me that he ultimately wants to switch over to all oil at some point.

    For those that took the time to read all of this ....you may be wondering why I took the time to write all of this? I wanted to show and share that in my case this was a long slow process. It took several years of soft selling the idea while continuing to offer assistance wherever it was needed with the Pinewood Derby. It was about building a relationship of respect and trust. It was about following through with what I said I would do. It probably didn't hurt that my son is now a Life Scout and is in the 7th grade. So any appearances of personal motivations are greatly limited by this fact.

    While this is not a done deal, I feel it is step in the right direction! In fact, durning our Packs Cub race, I found several things wrong with the track. I fixed what I could at the time and let the leader know about the issues. I again offered help to fix the track. So ....next weekend the track is coming to our garage for repair work. It should be a good opportunity to have an honest conversation about how the transition to oil is moving along. So I continue to offer help whenever possible.

    So to those that want to help introduce oil to your pack/District, maybe you can glean some small piece of information from my experience that can help in your case. Good luck in your quest to educate those responsible for your races.


    Now if we can just work on those rules .....;)

    Remember...have some fun!!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  12. IAE Racing

    IAE Racing PWD Royalty Pro Racer

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    Thats the ticket, Thinking! A wise poet once said, "you cant fix stupid."
     
  13. Chief

    Chief PWD Royalty

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    No ya cant but whats worse is knowing the difference and trying not to dent your own head while beating iit up against the wall haha:confused: I miss that emoji
     
  14. Pacfanweb

    Pacfanweb League Racer

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    One bottle of scout store Krytox could lube the whole Pack for years.
    It's not more expensive.
    It's not messier, it's FAR cleaner.
    Nothing is messier than graphite.
    It's not faster unless you do the entire oil process, but it'll still be more consistent and WAY easier to use.

    There is zero reason to NOT use oil, other than "stupid people".

    It's the same with the "4 on the floor" rule. Somewhere along the way, a dad, probably a cub master who was used to his son winning got beat by a kid whose dad figured out the 3 wheel trick and rail running.
    So, instead of saying "Nice, we're doing that next year", he got butt hurt and outlawed it.

    And it just continued on from there, and now the people who put the "no 3 wheelers" rule in generally don't even know why it's there. It just "is".
    And somewhere, someone lubed a car with WD40 or something and it dripped on the track or the table and it got banned....without anyone thinking about just how easy any oil is to clean up vs. graphite.

    I tried to get our district to get rid of the 4 wheel rule last year, and I was told "We have to hold the scouts to some type of standards". Say what? Yeah, you hold them to "fits in the go/no box/5oz/only BSA parts" as your 'standards' and roll. Those standards are good enough, and FAR easier to enforce.

    I've helped with the girl scout derby the last few years and I wrote the rules. There basically are none. 5oz. Go/no go box. No pizza cutter wheels. After that: Run what you brung and hope you brung enough.
     
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  15. xjarcher

    xjarcher Rail Runner

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    The Problem that Jimmy mentioned earlier was that there were some folks who felt that graphite was superior and would actually cheat and bring a graphite car. (One guy did it two years in a row AFTER he was informed ) They claim "we have never seen the regional rules and they are different from ours." What' s funny about that is those rules were in place for 15 years and the graphite ban was in place for 4 of them. The rules committee just gave up and said "run what you brung" but if it sheds on the track, you're disqualified. That's going to be fun at next year's regional. " When they finish behind oil cars consistently maybe they'll ask!
     
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  16. IAE Racing

    IAE Racing PWD Royalty Pro Racer

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    And it just continued on from there, and now the people who put the "no 3 wheelers" rule in generally don't even know why it's there. It just "is".


    And there is the fortune of life, whether it scouts or just about anything else.
     
  17. Loud2ns

    Loud2ns Pinewood Ninja

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    Definately wasn't superior this go around!
     
  18. xjarcher

    xjarcher Rail Runner

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    The guy who was running graphite built a very nice car, alignment looked good, all the usual build strategies. He was quite confident it would do very well. It actually lost to all of the non graphite cars and even one that used Pledge.
     
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