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Discussion in 'General Pinewood Derby Discussion' started by S Ham, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. S Ham

    S Ham Pack Champion

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    Seriously this is a huge help at getting started. I have so many questions and rule interpretation questions. I've been reading for the last few weeks and finally signed up. My son wants a fast car and I want to guide him through it as much as possible. I'll be doing the axle and wheel prep.

    What about the difference between ladder vs I design cars?
    I know its an aluminum track that appears in decent shape.

    It doesn't say we have to use 4 wheels. Can I remove one altogether? What about a stationary guide fin?
    It does say we have to use the BSA wheels, but they may be lightly sanded to remove burrs, but cannot be shaped and the trade cannot be minimized to alter the tread-surface contact. no H or V shaped wheels. i cannot under cut the the wheel or shape the tread to minimize surface contact. I cannot round or alter the wheel surface where it contacts the car.

    Axles can be polished to remove small burrs. No other changes are allows. No shaping of the axles.

    We have to use the BSA slots, and have the nail head visible. but it doesn't sound like I can't make the slot deeper as long as the nail head is visible.

    One item is no slots at the front of the car, but can I use a raised bar ? It simple says the front tip must touch the starting pin, no concave car fronts since the starting pin must rest against he leading edge of the car.
     
  2. Reecedad

    Reecedad League Racer

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    You should post your rules. At that point others would be able to help you more with your questions
     
  3. Brian Stanley

    Brian Stanley Workshop Leader Pro Racer

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    If convenient you might post your whole rull set. We can't really answer your questions without them. The trick to the rules is if they don't state that something is prohibited, then you can do it. However, you have to be aware that race organizers will interpet rules, or even make them up on the fly at times and there's little you can do about it. If speed is the goal then make the car thin and simple. New people always spend way to much time on the car body, and not nearly enough on the wheels and axles (ask me how I know!) which is were the speed is. New Scouts will often want (demand) a cool looking car, that is right until the racing starts, so spend the time and effort where it is most effective.
     
  4. S Ham

    S Ham Pack Champion

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    Thank you. What I posted above was the summary. I'll scan a copy to post.
     
  5. DerbyDad4Hire

    DerbyDad4Hire Administrator Staff Member 25+ Pro Race Wins! National Champion

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    Ladder or flat sided cars are faster. The more shape you add the slower it goes.

    You dont need the raised bar.

    If they allow you to remove one wheel then by all means do it.
     
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  6. S Ham

    S Ham Pack Champion

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    Thank you. here are the rules.
    OFFICIAL PINEWOOD DERBY RULES
    1.
    Car Design and Awards:

    There will be awards for the appearance of the car and all cars that enter will receive an award. Anyone who finishes a car is a winner, be it Best Design, Best Carving, Best Workmanship, etc. Scouts may add details for appearance that do not meet the race rules if these details can be removed before registration.
    2. Construction: PLEASE READ CAREFULLY CONSTRUCTION RULES WILL BE ENFORCED
    The BSA kit provided must be used - no exceptions. This includes body, wheels, and axles.

    a. Maximum overall width (including wheels and axles) shall not exceed 2 3/4 inches.
    b.
    Minimum width between wheels shall be 1 3/4 inches so car will clear the center guide strip.
    c.
    Minimum clearance between bottom of car and track shall be 3/8 inches so the car will clear the center strip.
    d.
    Maximum length shall not exceed 7 inches.
    e.
    The wheelbase distance must be 4 3/8 inches. The car must use the axle grooves provided in the car kit.
    f.
    The maximum height of the car cannot exceed 4 inches.
    3.
    Maximum total car weight may not exceed 5.0 oz. The readings of the official scale will be considered final. Any cooking or postal scale will likely be precise enough. It is better to be a little underweight than overweight since weight is more easily added rather than removed during pre-race registration.
    4.
    Scout participation: Parents may provide guidance, construction and safety tips, or demonstrate steps in
    construction, but should keep in mind that the Derby is a race matching the abilities of 7 to 10-year-old boys. Safety considerations must be observed at all times and no Scout should be asked to do more than is deemed reasonable or safe. The Scout should do as much of the construction as age and skill will allow since this is their car and they should feel pride of accomplishment! Working on the car together should be more important than winning or losing a race.
    If you update an old car then you should add new paint, decals, decorations, etc. so that you spend some time together on the project. All cars will need to pass this year's inspection by the judges at the time of the race.
    5.
    Wheels: Only BSA wheels may be used. Wheels may be lightly sanded to remove burrs but cannot be shaped and the tread cannot be minimized to alter the tread-surface contact. No "H" or "V" shaped wheels. You cannot undercut the wheel or shape the tread to minimize surface contact. Do not round or alter the wheel surface where it contacts the car. Wheels judged to be in violation of these rules will have to be replaced before a car can race.
    6.
    Axles: Polishing to remove small burrs is allowed. No other changes to the axles will be allowed. No shaping of axles. Axles judged to be in violation will be changed with new axles before a car can race. The axles must be driven into the wooden body's pre-cut axle grooves. The grooves in the body must be used for the axles. Axle holes cannot be drilled into the car. The points on the nails must be visible during inspection. You must use the nails from the BSA kit. Please do not use "speed axles". You will be required to change your axles if you use non-BSA axles.
    7.
    Shape: The front of the car cannot have slots to improve starting position. The front tip of the car must touch the starting pin. No concave car fronts since the starting pin must rest against the leading edge of the car.
    8.
    No loose material is allowed in or on the car. Details such as steering wheel, driver, spoiler, decals, painting and interior details are permissible as long as these details do not exceed the maximum length, width, and weight specifications.
    9.
    No special bearings, washers, bushings, springs or hubcaps are allowed.
    10.
    Stationary weights may be embedded inside the car body. Weights may be on the bottom of the car, but they should not protrude from the bottom since they may interfere with the ability of the car to go down the track if they do not clear the center guide strip on the track. Mercury may not be used in the car as it is a potential health hazard.
    11.
    The car must be freewheeling with no starting devices or other propulsion system.
    12.
    Lubrication: Only dry powdered lubricants may be used. Once the car is weighed no further lubrication or other modification will be allowed.
    General:
    13. The race is open to all Pack Scout Members
    14.
    If a car jumps the track or leaves its lane and interferes with another car the heat will be repeated, but if it does this a second time, it will lose the heat. If a car suffers a mechanical problem, loses an axle, breaks a wheel, etc and a repair can be made in a reasonable time the heat will be run again. If not, the car will lose the heat. Only race officials can be in the track and race area.
    15.
    Each car must register and pass inspection to race. The inspection team has the right to disqualify those cars which do not meet the rules. Car owners will be notified and can alter their car to meet the rules, if time permits. Once a car has been registered and weighed, it cannot be altered unless it breaks and needs repair (if time permits) and then it must be re-inspected. Registered cars may be sequestered by the race committee.
    16.
    The race should be fun! Unsportsmanlike conduct can lead to disqualification.
    17.
    If you have questions please call your den leader.
    18.
     
  7. Reecedad

    Reecedad League Racer

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    I’d suggest you get on eBay and buy a 1985 official bsa kit. Your rules allow it and you could get 91-93 axles right off the bat.
     
  8. S Ham

    S Ham Pack Champion

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    It says I have to use them from the bsa kit.

     
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  9. Brian Stanley

    Brian Stanley Workshop Leader Pro Racer

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    Right, but your rules don't say "from current year" (like ours do).

    Your rules:

    "....required to change your axles if you use non-BSA axles." Axles from a 1985 BSA kit are official BSA axles.
     
  10. Mojo Racing

    Mojo Racing National Contender Pro Racer

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    You guys really get stuck on those axles, don't you?

    I am sorry, but that should not be the "go to" thought (1985 BSA kits are official BSA axles) when you are looking at your rules. No they are not... they WERE official

    What do you think they would do if you put those WHEELS on your car? Do you think they would let them run??? I am pretty sure they wouldn't, because they aren't from the BSA kits that we have now... The same thing applies when you mention those 1985 kits with the axles...

    You guys are supposed to be pro racers giving cub dads advice for their cubs, and personally, I think you are giving these cub dads bad advice by telling them to use these axles. You KNOW it is a blatant mis-interpretation of the rules.
     
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  11. DerbyBoyRacing

    DerbyBoyRacing Pinewood Ninja

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    I totally agree with you. It says out of your kits that you're giving. That means to me, the current kits from BSA. They are not legal at NPWDRL in Boxstock for that same reason.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  12. Mojo Racing

    Mojo Racing National Contender Pro Racer

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    I would hate to hear that a cub was disqualified because he was given bad advice from a pro racer...

    You guys have rule sets to follow, and should be able to do that with the knowledge that you have accumulated over time... Resorting to cheating shouldn't be the advice you give... Give them information on how to beat that other car with prep, alignment, and other speed information... Not information on how to cheat.
     
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  13. Reecedad

    Reecedad League Racer

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    As you can see from the responses there are different opinions on the vintage axles. The 1985 axles come from an official kit. According to your rules it would not be cheating but if you are uncomfortable using them then don’t.
     
  14. Mojo Racing

    Mojo Racing National Contender Pro Racer

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    It is not the type of kit they are given.

    Would you say they should run those older wheels if they had an advantage, even though there is a distinct visual difference??
     
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  15. Reecedad

    Reecedad League Racer

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    I now see that the bsa kit provided must be used. I didn’t catch that before so I have given you bad advice. I’m sorry. The vintage axles would be illegal
     
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  16. Reecedad

    Reecedad League Racer

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    I see now his rules clearly state he has to use the kits provided. I made a mistake earlier. If his rules were worded differently and only stated he had to use an official bsa kit then yes. I don’t think he would be breaking the rules by using anything from an older kit.
     
  17. Mojo Racing

    Mojo Racing National Contender Pro Racer

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    When they say official BSA kit, they don't mean ANY official BSA kit, they mean the one that is available at the scout stores.

    You know that... And yet you keep trying to one them to buy older kids...

    I just hope no Cubs are disqualified from your advice to not use the axles that they can get from the scout stores today.

    If they can use able that attend bought from the scout store... The better bet is aftermarket axles
     
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  18. Reecedad

    Reecedad League Racer

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    Jay I know you and Jason disagree with me on this matter. But my opinion is simple- if they mean that you have to use a bsa kit from the current year they should state that in the rules. The rules listed above clearly state the bsa kit provided so I unfortunately provided some bad advice.
    I really don’t care if anyone uses these old axles I’m simply letting them know those axles might be an option. In the future I’ll be sure to also mention that if they are concerned they should check with their local race organizer.
     
  19. S Ham

    S Ham Pack Champion

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    Thank you all. Sorry to start some chaos on that question. Since I have to use the slot provided and cannot "drill" would I be out of line to deepen the slot to cant/toe the wheels?
     
  20. Reecedad

    Reecedad League Racer

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    I think everyone will agree with this advice- you should ask your race organizer.
     

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